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Am I my brothers keeper?? June 28th 07


In a recent post, a discussion was started about "Are tattoos a sin?"

In reading this dialogue I felt God leading me to post a topic for [sign in to see URL] lets get down to it.

AM I My BROTHERS KEEPER??

Lets keep this hypthetical argument before us as we read this [sign in to see URL] men are fighting about tattoos. One man feels he can get tattooed. Another man feels it is a sin to get tattooed and they have set themselves to arguing over it.

So we begin Romans 14. Lets turn to Romans chapter 14 and lets take a look at Grace and what is has done for us.

Two men are arguing over meat. One man feels he can eat anything. Another man feels he can only eat veggies.

Another two men are also arguing over what days are holy. One man feel Sunday is the only holy day. Another man feels everyday is holy.

THey cant agree. Even worse, they are condemning one another and by doing [sign in to see URL] are not walking in love.

Paul writes the letter to the Romans and addresses these issues....

The Law of Liberty
 1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord;[a] and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.[c] 11 For it is written:


      “ As I live, says the LORD,
      Every knee shall bow to Me,
      And every tongue shall confess to God.”[d]

12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.
The Law of Love
   
14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things[e]is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.[f] 22 Do you have faith?[g] Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.


But if you look at ROmans 14:14 you will CLEARLY see that Paul is saying, that if someone FEELS something is unclean for [sign in to see URL] for them it is unclean. WHy? What we do as CHRISTIANS we must do from [sign in to see URL] whatever we do not do in faith is SIN because we are not doing it from faith (read the last line of chapter 14).

So what he is CLEARLY saying is that every person must seek out Gods heart where they are and walk in [sign in to see URL] they believe. Not in doing whatever we want but through prayer, supplication and studying Gods word. We come to grips with the freedom Christ has secured for us, we begin to live a different life. Not a life bound up by laws but a life bound up with Gods spirit. A life free from law not because there is no law but because Christ transcends the law. We begin to walk "in the spirit" and live "by the spirit". Paul describes this in the "Law of Liberty" and then goes on one step further and tells us that we should not "cause our brother to stumble" by asking them to not walk in faith. Each man has to live with God where they are and must walk forward with God as they are on His journey.

Paul says there is one complete freedom but not all people will be able to completely accept that freedom the same [sign in to see URL] the first few lines of Chapter 14. So we should not cause our weaker brothers to stumble in their walk but asking them to not walk in what they feel is right for them according to the law.

The weaker [sign in to see URL] feel they are still bound to the law, need to be accepted and loved by those who have grown or been given the freedom of not being bound by those same laws but free in Christ.

lets hear your [sign in to see URL] could go on and on but the entire point of this is to leave it open for dialogue...

God has CLEARLY opened the door for getting tattooed to not be a sin. Yet some people may not be able to live in that [sign in to see URL] for them, getting tattooed without the faith to do so freely, is a sin. THey would not be walking in faith. If we were too make somone agree with our thinking or freedoms without them coming to the freedom clearly in their own way, we are causing them to [sign in to see URL] are not walking in love.

does this jive with anybody else???? lets hear it...


????????

Last edited by warchild33, Sep/15/2007, 1:25 pm
Jun/28/2007, 10:49 pm Link to this post Send Email to warchild33   Send PM to warchild33
 
MarkedForHim Profile
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Re: Am I my brothers keeper??


I'm simple. I like things simple. Too often I get caught up in the words, reading and re-reading because I'm not sure I understand. What I do understand is that Christ taught us two great commandments. Love God with everything you are and with everything you've got. Love each other the same way. I often think about what St. Thomas More said, "I have no window to look into another man's soul, I condemn no one."
If I love someone like Christ taught and the Holy Spirit tells me to, how can I condemn them? Did Christ condemn me? Can I condemn him because he is doing what the Holy Spirit tells him to do? The key seems to be that whatever action is in question, we need to ask ourselves if this is true to Christ's teachings and the leading of the Holy Spirit. It just seems that appearance, dietary LAWS, etc. are secondary. The love that Christ tells us we must have for each other conquers all of that. And if somebody condemns me and calls me ungodly for eating barbecue, well, I'm just gonna love him anyway. And my tattoos? Well I just think "You have no idea what they mean to me and Jesus." I sorta smile. More often, I say something like "You know, there was a time I thought tattoos were pretty trashy, but let me tell you about this one." What happens is that we get to talk about the word GRACE tattooed on my right arm. It's all out of LOVE. Does this make sense? emoticon
Jun/29/2007, 1:12 pm Link to this post Send Email to MarkedForHim   Send PM to MarkedForHim
 
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Re: Am I my brothers keeper??


quote:

warchild33 wrote:

In a recent post, a discussion was started about "Are tattoos a sin?"

In reading this dialogue I felt God leading me to post a topic for [sign in to see URL] lets get down to it.

AM I My BROTHERS KEEPER??

Lets keep this hypthetical argument before us as we read this [sign in to see URL] men are fighting about tattoos. One man feels he can get tattooed. Another man feels it is a sin to get tattooed and they have set themselves to arguing over it.

So we begin Romans 14. Lets turn to Romans chapter 14 and lets take a look at Grace and what is has done for us.

Two men are arguing over meat. One man feels he can eat anything. Another man feels he can only eat veggies.

Another two men are also arguing over what days are holy. One man feel Sunday is the only holy day. Another man feels everyday is holy.

THey cant agree. Even worse, they are condemning one another and by doing [sign in to see URL] are not walking in love.

Paul writes the letter to the Romans and addresses these issues....

The Law of Liberty
 1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord;[a] and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.[c] 11 For it is written:


      “ As I live, says the LORD,
      Every knee shall bow to Me,
      And every tongue shall confess to God.”[d]

12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.
The Law of Love
   
14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things[e]is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.[f] 22 Do you have faith?[g] Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.


But if you look at ROmans 14:14 you will CLEARLY see that Paul is saying, that if someone FEELS something is unclean for [sign in to see URL] for them it is unclean. WHy? What we do as CHRISTIANS we must do from [sign in to see URL] whatever we do not do in faith is SIN because we are not doing it from faith (read the last line of chapter 14).

So what he is CLEARLY saying is that every person must seek out Gods heart where they are and walk in [sign in to see URL] they believe. Not in doing whatever we want but through prayer, supplication and studying Gods word. We come to grips with the freedom Christ has secured for us, we begin to live a different life. Not a life bound up by laws but a life bound up with Gods spirit. A life free from law not because there is no law but because Christ transcends the law. We begin to walk "in the spirit" and live "by the spirit". Paul describes this in the "Law of Liberty" and then goes on one step further and tells us that we should not "cause our brother to stumble" by asking them to not walk in faith. Each man has to live with God where they are and must walk forward with God as they are on His journey.

Paul says there is one complete freedom but not all people will be able to completely accept that freedom the same [sign in to see URL] the first few lines of Chapter 14. So we should not cause our weaker brothers to stumble in their walk but asking them to not walk in what they feel is right for them according to the law.

The weaker [sign in to see URL] feel they are still bound to the law, need to be accepted and loved by those who have grown or been given the freedom of not being bound by those same laws but free in Christ.

lets hear your [sign in to see URL] could go on and on but the entire point of this is to leave it open for dialogue...

God has CLEARLY opened the door for getting tattooed to not be a sin. Yet some people may not be able to live in that [sign in to see URL] for them, getting tattooed without the faith to do so freely, is a sin. THey would not be walking in faith. If we were too make somone agree with our thinking or freedoms without them coming to the freedom clearly in their own way, we are causing them to [sign in to see URL] are not walking in love.

does this jive with anybody else???? lets hear it...


????????





I posted a reply on the other thread and I'm thinking I should've left it over here =) So many times you hear "Don't make your brother stumble" as the retort to why you shouldn't ever do anything ever that offends another person. Let's all be honest, that's completely impossible. If I say tattoos are [sign in to see URL]'m offending [sign in to see URL] I say tattoos are [sign in to see URL]'m offending someone. All I can do is rely on what God's Spirit leads me to FEEL about any certain thing and then keep that between me and [sign in to see URL] trying to convince everyone else to agree with me. [sign in to see URL] someone comes along and questions what the Holy Spirit has already led me to FEEL is [sign in to see URL] are not acting in love towards me because who are they to judge what GODS SPIRIT has led me to KNOW is RIGHT!

But for what it's [sign in to see URL] me and my [sign in to see URL] tend to agree wholeheartedly with this statement previously said:

"Paul says there is one complete freedom but not all people will be able to completely accept that freedom the same [sign in to see URL] the first few lines of Chapter 14. So we should not cause our weaker brothers to stumble in their walk but asking them to not walk in what they feel is right for them according to the law."

It doesn't mean that anyone is a wimpy Christian either if they aren't at a point in their faith that they can accept things that others [sign in to see URL] just means we are [sign in to see URL] parts to complete one whole body. We all have a different purpose and in order for those purposes to be fulfilled, we have to adhere to our "design" emoticon...tattooed or not emoticon

I LOVE YOU MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS....
Inked or Plain
~Emily
Jun/29/2007, 2:31 pm Link to this post Send Email to EME015   Send PM to EME015
 
caricature19 Profile
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Re: Am I my brothers keeper??


I've had this conversation with several people already... People who feel tattoos are a sin. They always pull the "Your body is a temple" verse.. but my response is usually "I view tattoos as stained glass windows in a church."

Also, I usually tell them that I feel it's okay for me to get a tattoo because of my personal walk with the Lord. Just like I pray before getting any of my piercings (10 total). I want to make sure that by getting pierced or tattooed, it's not affecting my relationship with God in a negative way. I feel getting pierced and tattooed will not hinder my personal relationship with God. But for other people it might not be okay in their walk.
Jul/10/2007, 2:22 pm Link to this post Send Email to caricature19   Send PM to caricature19
 
TattooLady Profile
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Re: Am I my brothers keeper??


I personally don't like piercings. I also don't like dyed red hair. I don't like too much lipstick. I don't like really short hair on women. I don't like capri pants in church either.

Point [sign in to see URL]'s not about me.

It's about God, and the person's relationship with Him.

I can't judge that.

Jul/13/2007, 1:08 pm Link to this post Send Email to TattooLady   Send PM to TattooLady
 
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Re: Am I my brothers keeper??


Hi I am new to this board and was referred by a link on another board concerning this issue on tattoos. I have seen this passage in Romans used for a defense before and wanted to make a comment.

Paul's discussion here in Romans concerns Kosher food laws and Jewish feast days. Some of the new Christians who had pagan backgrounds were not sure what they were supposed to do as it concerned Mosaic laws that governed the Jewish customs during the time that the temple was still standing.

Paul's topic clearly concerns God-given laws, so we ought not to jump to the conclusion that he is sanctifying pagan customs here at all. Since God is the provider of all that He gives us to eat, He is able to sanctify our food thru the word of God and prayer with thanksgiving. He is not telling us that it is "OK" now to eat mice and rats!

The same goes with the Jewish feasts, they are free to celebrate them or not. But nothing is being said about condoning pagan customs. They can eat the food offered in the idol temple UNLESS it is pointed out that was the source of the food. Then for the sake of the one who said it, the mature brother should take a stand and refuse to eat it. This then makes the difference between what is holy or profane for the sake of the weaker brother who may be stumbled by his idolatrous past.

There is nothing being given here that instructs us on how to bring sanctification to the unholy practice of marking oneself for the dead.

What Lev 19 is addressing is how the people entering into the land were to separate themselves from the heathens who dwelt in Canaan and served idols; to show forth that Israel served the thrice holy God. Each of these laws addresses a particular pagan practice to which they were not to do. God instructs Moses to give them these laws so that they will have His law to follow and not then follow any of the customs and laws of these heathens.

Now we are not bound to the Mosaic law anymore - but the purpose for which the law was given is still valid, which Peter addresses (referencing Leviticus):

(1 Peter 1:15-16) But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

(1 Peter 1:17) And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Peter also makes the connection to idolatry if you look at the rest of what he says.

So I suppose the question we ought to ask ourselves when considering tats is whether it meets the holiness of God for us or not. Considering that we are told to flee idolatry & its pollutions (1 Cor 10:14; Acts 15:29,21:25; 1John 5:21), should we then take the things we once offered to idols and offer them now to our God with thanksgiving (like we can with food)? Does God want us to take those things that were once an abomination to Him and use them to give Him praise? I can't help but remember that Israel tried this with the golden calf...

Perhaps He only meant that doing it for the dead was the problem and that if you do it for some other reason then it is "OK". But the heathen worships his idol in vain, and we worship the Lord in Spirit and in truth. Can a lie be used to present the truth so that grace may abound, or is this an exercise in our own vanity as we do what seems right in our own eyes? The heathen cuts himself for the dead because he has no hope of life after death, while our hope is in the resurrection of the Lord.

Holiness is in direct opposition to worldliness. The way we have been given to show forth the holiness of the God we serve and the love we have for Him is by our love for the brethren and our willingness to lay down our life to meet his needs. (see 1 John)

I don't see that tattoos have anything to do with that command. It just seems to be another vain way that men find to be religious (yet cool) in the sight of other men.

Which is only my opinion based on my understanding of scripture and the reason I do not have any tattoos.




Last edited by MoGrace2u, Aug/22/2007, 9:01 pm
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Re: Am I my brothers keeper??


This is not a simple matter, it is not an easy answer and [sign in to see URL] do not believe there is a law in Regards to Christians and [sign in to see URL] or con. If there is, in my studies Ive never seen it.

Yet I do not believe Paul is just talking about food in this passage in Romans 14. He also talks about "Holy Days" and any thinking which would lock us into a certain religious box. Paul states there should be no judgement from brother to brother and that we each, as Saved followers must work out our Faith before God. THat each of us lives before God and will be judged before God. THat each of us must seek out Gods will for him/her in their life and follow as they feel God is asking them to [sign in to see URL] FAITH.

This does not give us the right to do whatever we [sign in to see URL] clearly states in "Romans 6:18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness." BUT EVEN [sign in to see URL] NOT ABOUT WHAT WE DO OR DONT DO. Its about being identifited with the righteousness of JESUS.

We are no longer slaves to [sign in to see URL] becasue we are free from the law, sin can no longer take power in the law. Therefore we are now to live bound in the Spirit of God and His will for our [sign in to see URL] woman and man before God. No man can judge Gods will for another, each man must act on the Faith in which he has and walk before God. WOrking out His salvation with "Fear and Trembling" Philippians 2:12. We are not only commanded but directed not to judge one another, as each man will face the Judge in his time. (Matthew 7:1- Romans 14:13).

We are ALL called to walk before God, as His will and our Faith leads [sign in to see URL] HIS justification by Faith. Not in our acts, not in our righteousness, not in our own will or desires. So if any Saved man or woman is tattooed or gets [sign in to see URL] law has no power over [sign in to see URL] their faith in Gods will for them, as HE CALLS THEM. As for those not yet [sign in to see URL] are under the law on all counts, not just Lev 19.

If you dont believe [sign in to see URL] Galatians 3,4,5,[sign in to see URL] 5,6,7,8,[sign in to see URL] 6,7,8,9,10. Study what God is saying through Paul. Study what Paul is saying about the law, how it pretains to us as Christians. Our [sign in to see URL] on, etc.

And the passage in 1 Peter 1:16 “Be holy, for I am holy.” I do nto believe it means..."go out and be holy or do holy things". It means, "My children are Holy because I am Holy. Not because of anything they have done, can do or will do, but because they have been identified with me and what I have done on the Cross, the Resurrection and the Return of the Holy Spirit.

We are not made Holy by anything we do or EVER could do but because of what Christ has done, which is what that passage in 1 Peter is all about.

Do NOT JUDGE my brothers and [sign in to see URL].
Aug/24/2007, 11:17 am Link to this post Send Email to warchild33   Send PM to warchild33
 
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Re: Am I my brothers keeper??


MOGRACE2U,
Some of what you have said is just bad Hermeneutics. I don't understand your motives for posting what you did. Friend, if you don't have tatoos, that's fine. I'm not loved by my Father for what's on my body or not. Christ's love is not based on our performance. If it was, I would be doomed. The things I do are not for men but for His glory and because I desire to love him more because He has given me so much. When my God is glorified, men's opinions mean nothing to me. I desire to know my Father and make Him known. My tattoos represent Christ's love for me and my love for Him. I don't get them because someone might think they're cool. I desire to grow everyday, and I hope you do, too. We both can do that regardless of what we look like, which is just Awesome. Our God is bigger than both of us. Hopefully, the grace that He gives us every second of our lives will give us the desire to show it more to those around us, especially those who may not agree with us. Truth is what we should seek, and He is Truth.

Last edited by Forgivenchild, Aug/27/2007, 7:46 am
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Re: Am I my brothers keeper??


[sign in to see URL] for posting your comment. I want you to know that even though I personally do not think you are seeing the scripture in its depth, I agree you are on the right path.

PLease brothers and sisters....

what we are all doing [sign in to see URL] arguing over these issues is exactly why Paul wrote Romans 14 and by us arguing or debating over who is right and who is wrong, we are going against everything that is written in Romans 14. We are "comdemning one another for the sake of food".

Paul says do not be condemned by what you approve. Meaning, we should not pass judgement on another because with that same judgement, we are comdemning ourselves to judgement.

So how about we take a different approach in discussing this?

lets break down Romans 14 one verse at a time, one week at a time. Starting today?

So we can all walk throug this chapter together and do what we can to share whats in our hearts and see where God leads us?

Thanks again heather....
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