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Homosexuality and Christianity! Let's do this!!!!


I think this is an important issue, one of the most important among Christians today in my opinion.

There are some incredible resources on this issue that I've found lately. Aside from the work that Jay Bakker has been doing with soul force (www.soulforce.org), I've also found excellent resources at www.gaychristian.net (the "great debate" link between Justin and Ron is awesome) and this pdf file pamphlet from the soul force web site: http://www.soulforce.org/pdf/whatthebiblesays.pdf

The people involved in these organizations share the same opinion as me, that homosexuality is not a choice or a sin (at least I've never met one single GAY person who feels it is a choice), that Jesus and the Jewish prophets say nothing of homosexuality, that we need to carefully and prayerfully re-examine what the Bible really says about homosexuality, etc. etc. But they have researched and expanded on the issue immensely, especially Rev. Mel White.

Some of the most important points/quotes of his studies in the soulforce pamphlet are...

"Most people who misuse the Bible DON’T search the Scriptures. They simply find a text that seems to support their prejudice and then spend the rest of their lives quoting (or misquoting) that text. The way certain Bible verses are used to condemn homosexuality and homosexuals is a perfect example of this"

His third premise, that "We must be open to new truth from Scripture".

"Even when we believe the Scriptures are “infallible” or “without error,” it’s terribly dangerous to think that our understanding of every biblical text is also without error. We are human. We are fallible.
And we can misunderstand and misinterpret these ancient words...with tragic results".

His fourth premise that "The Bible is a book about God—not a book about human sexuality".

He illustrates how the Bible
"accepts sexual practices that we condemn
and condemns sexual practices that we accept. Lots of them! Here are a few examples.
• DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.
• DEUTERONOMY 22:22
If a married person has sex with someone else’s husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.
• MARK 10:1-12
Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.
• LEVITICUS 18:19
The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman’s period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.
• MARK 12:18-27
If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until
she bears her deceased husband a male heir.
• DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy’s genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.
I’m certain you don’t agree with these teachings from the Bible about sex. And you shouldn’t. The list goes on: The Bible says
clearly that sex with a prostitute is acceptable for the husband but not for the wife. Polygamy (more than one wife) is acceptable, as is a king’s having many concubines. (Solomon, the wisest king of all,
had 1,000 concubines.) Slavery and sex with slaves, marriage of girls aged 11–13, and treatment of women as property are all
accepted practices in the Scriptures. On the other hand, there are strict prohibitions against interracial marriage, birth control,
discussing or even naming a sexual organ, and seeing one’s parents nude."

LEVITICUS 18:22 AND 20:13:
What do the two verses sometimes cited from
Leviticus say about God? Leviticus 18:6 reads: “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female. It is an abomination.” A similar verse occurs two chapters later, in Leviticus 20:13: “A man who sleeps with another man is an abomination and should be executed.” On the surface, these words could leave you feeling rather uneasy, especially if you are gay. But just below the surface is the deeper truth about God—and it has nothing to do with sex. Leviticus is a holiness code written 3,000 years ago. This code includes many of the outdated sexual laws we mentioned earlier, and a lot more. It also includes prohibitions against round haircuts, tattoos, working on the Sabbath, wearing garments of
mixed fabrics, eating pork or shellfish, getting your fortune told, and even playing with the skin of a pig. (There goes football!) So what’s a holiness code? It’s a list of behaviors that people of faith find offensive in a certain place and time. In this case, the code was written for priests only, and its primary intent was to set
the priests of Israel over and against priests of other cultures"

"Abomination"???

What about this word abomination that comes up in both passages? In Hebrew, “abominations” (TO’EBAH) are behaviors that people in a certain time and place consider tasteless or offensive. To the Jews an abomination was not a law, not something evil like rape or murder forbidden by the Ten Commandments. It was a common behavior by non-Jews that Jews thought was displeasing to God. Jesus and Paul both said the holiness code in Leviticus does not pertain to Christian believers. Nevertheless, there are still people who pull the two verses about men sleeping together from this ancient holiness code to say that the Bible seems to condemn homosexuality. But wait, before we go any further, let’s ask: What does this text say about God? Even if the old holiness codes no longer apply to us as Christians, it’s important to remember that in every age, people of faith are responsible for setting moral and ethical standards that honor God. But we people of faith must be very careful not to allow our own prejudices to determine what those standards should be.

Now what do the Leviticus passages say about homosexuality? I’m convinced those passages say nothing about homosexuality as we understand it today. Here’s why. Consider this single Bible passage that was used for centuries to condemn masturbation: “He spilled his seed on the ground... And the thing which Onan did displeased the Lord: wherefore he slew him also” (Genesis
38:9-10). For Jewish writers of Scripture, a man sleeping with another man was an abomination. But it was also an abomination (and one worthy of death) to masturbate or even to interrupt coitus (to halt
sex with your spouse before ejaculation as an act of birth control). Why were these sexual practices considered abominations by
Scripture writers in these ancient times?
Because the Hebrew pre-scientific understanding was that the male semen contained the whole of life. With no knowledge of eggs and ovulation, it was assumed that the man’s sperm contained the
whole child and that the woman provided only the incubating space. Therefore, the spilling of semen without possibility of having a child was considered murder".

He also addresses Romans, and “MALOKOIS” and“ARSENOKOITAI”

But the two most important points I think he really drives home, are 1) That homosexuality is neither a sickness nor a sin, and that we need to be willing to accept new truth (unfortunately, the church has always been slow, if not the last institution on earth, to accept new truth). And 2) That although the prophets, Jesus, and other biblical authors say nothing about homosexual orientation as we understand it today, they are clear about one thing: As we search for truth, we are to “love one another.”

This is another issue I've really prayed about and searched my heart about. I thank God that there are Christians out there like Rev. White, Jay Bakker, Justin from gaychristian.net and others who are willing to take a courageous stand on this very divisive and tough issue. I don't know how many people I've personally known who condemn homosexuality, calling it an immoral choice, disgusting, unGodly, etc., who are thrice divorced, or engaging in insanely reckless, dangerous, and meaningless sex-lives. I've also seen condemned and judged gay couples who live happy, healthy, Christ-centered lives.

Please read the soulforce pamphlet or you can download the PDF file. Also, check out the gaychristian.net "great debate" link. Oh, and if you go to youtube.com and search "Jay Bakker," right at the top is a video titled "Jay Bakker's difficult support of gay marriage." It is an incredibly moving piece of footage. It's almost painful to watch the congregation's reaction when he finally comes out with his view on homosexuality and sin. Thank God for him and his stance on this difficult issue.

I'm not looking to "stir things up." I'm looking for opinions, and to discuss this important issue or debate respectfully. I would really like to know where people stand on this and why.

Jesus is king!

---Jack

Mar/2/2008, 2:18 am Link to this post Send Email to jakD   Send PM to jakD
 
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity! Let's do this!!!!


thank you for posting this brother, it drove me to deep study. I hope the Lord Blesses you today.
_______________

First off, I want to say that, while I believe that homosexuality is a sin, I openly admit to the fact that the church has failed to show any form of love to the homosexual community as Christ has commanded us to love all sinners as he has loved us as sinners.

This is the main passage that I hold to on this subject

Romans 1:18-32

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

 21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

I give the whole passage for context in an attempt to avoid "proof texting" which has been a way of misusing the scriptures as you have pointed out.

the context of this passage includes homosexuals in the same group of people who are "God haters, Slanderers, insolent, and arrogant." An Even harder point is that God "gave them over to their shameful lusts"

(on a side note, I believe that this flows out of 1 John 4:8 and 16 [God is Love], leading to 1 Corinthians 13:5 [Love] does not insist on its own way -English Standard Version-. Therefore, because of his nature, God will not force us to do his will.)

Also, at the end of the passage that directly addresses homosexuality, the english word "perversion" (NIV) is used. The greek word that is translated here is πλάνη (planē)

πλάνη means " a wandering, a straying about, whereby one, led astray from the right way, roams hither.Blue letter Bible

The same greek word is used in the following passages.

Ephesians 4:14- Translated as Deceit (ESV)

Matthew 27:64- Translated as Error (KJV) or Fraud (ESV)

1 Thessalonians 2:3- Translated as Error (ESV)

2 Thessalonians 2:11- Translated as Delusion (ESV)

James 5:20- Translated as "wandering" (ESV)

other passages include 2 Peter 2:18 and 3:17
1 John 4:6 and Jude 1:11 (references all found with Blue Letter Bible and Bible Gateway).

According to the greek, acts of homosexuality are not found in God's favor.

I think that one of the biggest problems we have with homosexuality is its social implications within our culture. To many churches, Homosexuals are like lepers the same way that alcoholics were during the age of prohibition. It has been dubbed a kind of super sin.

I used to be naive in my thinking that someone could not be born gay. I believe that it is entirely possible to be born Gay in the same way that I was born with the disposition to desire sex out of wedlock and to lust after women that I see around me. Homosexuality is a sexual sin, no different than masturbation or pornography; both of wich I see as sins because they are used to self gratify, rather than looking to God for your satisfaction.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-8
3It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4that each of you should learn to control his own body[a] in a way that is holy and honorable, 5not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; 6and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. 7For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.

Christ himself struggled with self gratification in Gethsemane.

Luke 22:42- Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

The next verse says that after Christ had submitted his desires to the will of the father "An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him."
If we resist temptation in order to give God Glory, then He will sustain us to move forward in his will.

Another huge problem I see with how the church handles the issue of homosexuality is that we expect non believers to step out of their sin, when It is only the redemptive work of Christ that allows us to leave sin behind and walk as a new Creation.

Therefore, we should not expect the unbeliever to be able to leave this behind until they have confessed Christ and the Holy Spirit has begun his work of sanctifying the person.

Even then, we cannot expect (though nothing is impossible with God) that the sin will be irradicated immediately. Paul address this very issue in Galatians 6:1-3

1Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. 2Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.

The temptation mentioned i verse 1 is a temptation towards pride and boasting in one's own strength; going with the theme of galatians.(according to the interperetation I received from my pastor).

We must remmember that we are nothing outside of the Grace that we received from Christ, and should therefore, extend that same grace to our brothers who are in sin.

Homosexuals are acting in sin, but so am I.
Today, I have gossiped, failed to love, been impatient, hated my neighbor, and despised authority, but by God's Grace I stand Justified.

To God be all Glory, and honor, and Power.

-Chris-
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity! Let's do this!!!!


Chris,

Thanks for the thoughtful and lengthy reply! Man, there are several issues I want to respond to in your post, most importantly (or the one that comes immediately to mind), is what is written in Romans. Again, this is quoting the soulforce pamphlet and Rev. White:
"For our discussion, this is the most controversial biblical passage of them all. In Romans 1:26–27 the apostle Paul describes non-Jewish women who exchange “natural use for unnatural” and non-Jewish men who “leave the natural use of women, working shame with each other.” This verse appears to be clear: Paul sees women having sex with women and men having sex with men, and he condemns that practice. But let’s go back 2,000 years and try to understand why. Paul is writing this letter to Rome after his missionary tour of the Mediterranean. On his journey Paul had seen great temples built to honor Aphrodite, Diana, and other fertility gods and goddesses of sex and passion instead of the one true God the apostle honors. Apparently, these priests and priestesses engaged in some odd sexual behaviors—including castrating themselves, carrying on drunken sexual orgies, and even having sex with young temple prostitutes (male and female)—all to honor the gods of sex and pleasure. The Bible is clear that sexuality is a gift from God. Our Creator celebrates our passion. But the Bible is also clear that when passion gets control of our lives, we’re in deep trouble. When we live for pleasure, when we forget that we are God’s children and that God has great dreams for our lives, we may end up serving the false gods of sex and passion, just as they did in Paul’s time. In our obsession with pleasure, we may even walk away from the God who created us—and in the process we may cause God to abandon all the great dreams God has for our lives. Did these priests and priestesses get into these behaviors because they were lesbian or gay? I don’t think so. Did God abandon them because they were practicing homosexuals? No. Read the text again."
In the Soulforce video, "There’s a Wideness in God’s Mercy," the Rev. Dr. Louis B. Smedes describes exactly how the Bible says these promiscuous priests and priestesses got into this mess. Once again it has nothing to do with homosexuality:
SMEDES: “The people Paul had in mind refused to acknowledge and worship God, and for this reason were abandoned by God. And being abandoned by God, they sank into sexual depravity.”
SMEDES: “The homosexuals I know have not rejected God at all; they love God and they thank God for his grace and his gifts. How, then, could they have been abandoned to homosexuality as a punishment for refusing to acknowledge God?”
SMEDES: “Nor have the homosexuals that I know given up heterosexual passions for homosexual lusts. They have been homosexual from the moment of their earliest sexual stirrings. They did not change from one orientation to another; they just discovered that they were homosexual. It would be unnatural for most homosexuals to have heterosexual sex.”
SMEDES: “And the homosexual people I know do not lust after each other any more than heterosexual people do...their love for one another is likely to be just as spiritual and personal as any heterosexual love can be.”

Also, I think one thing that needs to really be driven home is the need for NEW TRUTH with regard to our society today and the Bible. Like was mentioned in the first post regarding sexual practices and laws thousands of years ago that would be considered highly illegal and immoral today. I think we need to prayerfully and mindfully pursue new truth with regard to homosexuality. More quotes from soulforce.org on this issue...

"Over the centuries the Holy Spirit has taught us that certain Bible verses should not be understood as God’s law for all time periods. Some verses are specific to the culture and time they were written, and are no longer viewed as appropriate, wise, or just. Often, the Holy Spirit uses science to teach us why those ancient words no longer apply to our modern times. During the last three decades, for example, organizations representing 1.5 million U.S. health professionals (doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, and educators) have stated definitively that homosexual orientation is as natural as heterosexual orientation, that sexual orientation is determined by a combination of yet unknown pre- and post-natal influences, and that it is dangerous and inappropriate to tell a homosexual that he or she could or should attempt to change his or her sexual orientation."

I don't believe a homosexual can quit being homosexual any more than someone (like my mother for example, who once claimed she didn't agree with a gay person being a practicing Christian) can stop loving her husband, even though she ran out on my father and has been twice divorced. She is technically "living in sin." Yet she has been in a loving, Christ-centered marriage for nearly twenty years. Although the Bible says much more about divorce than homosexuality, she would consider it ludicrous for me to suggest she simply stop her sinful love for my stepfather. And I love her, but she's also one of those heterosexuals from the Twilight Zone who think homosexuality is a choice....sorry, that was mean-spirited, but seriously! Have you ever met a gay person who remembers choosing to be gay? Me neither.

But what I think is ultimately the most important parts of your post...

"Homosexuals are acting in sin, but so am I.
Today, I have gossiped, failed to love, been impatient, hated my neighbor, and despised authority, but by God's Grace I stand Justified".

And...

"Christ has commanded us to love all sinners as he has loved us as sinners".

Amen brother! This is something that is SO often overlooked. We ALL fall short. Why all the attention paid to the issue of homosexuality? We are all "living in sin." I listened to a televised pastor in the town I just moved from who had a local public access program tell homosexuals that he "...didn't want to argue with you via e-mails or anything like that, but you will not feel comfortable in my church. I will not condone your lifestyle". This man had himself been twice divorced, once for infidelity. Sad, sad, sad. And I'm tired of seeing this, which is why I feel the topic is so important.

I have to respectfully and completely disagree with you on this one:

"I believe that it is entirely possible to be born Gay in the same way that I was born with the disposition to desire sex out of wedlock and to lust after women that I see around me. Homosexuality is a sexual sin, no different than masturbation or pornography; both of wich I see as sins because they are used to self gratify, rather than looking to God for your satisfaction."

You view simply being born gay in the same way you do as lusting after women or other forms of self gratifying or selfish sexual behavior. I would argue that two men or two women, faithful to one another and living a Christ-centered life, shouldn't be categorized with people who have reckless or casual sex, etc. I have friends or clients who sleep around constantly, some of them cheating on their husbands and wives, but they'll be the loudest ones in the room in condemning homosexuals. I had one guy tell me not to long ago that "fags are an abomination man...it says so in the Bible." I asked him if he knew where it said this, or what it's context was, and of course he had no idea. Ironically, he was a) getting a tattoo, and b) the tattoo design had an eagle in it. When I told him that the verse he was talking about was in Leviticus, and that, by his rationale and the blanket context he was trying to use the homosexual/abomination comment, that would also mean that, according to Leviticus, I was giving him an abomination (tattoo) of an abomination (an eagle, which I explained was also considered an abomination in Leviticus). We didn't really talk much after that. Curiously, he didn't tip either.
I wasn't trying to be mean, I was just illustrating a point. He made a statement about something that was supposedly in the Bible, and had no idea where it came from, or what context it was used in. This happens almost every single time the subject of homosexuality/Christianity comes up.

---Jack

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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity! Let's do this!!!!


Also...

On "arsenokoitai" and "malakoi", Justin covered this extensively in "The Great Debate" section on gaychristian.net...

"Aside from Romans, the only other New Testament reference to homosexuality occurs in two passages known as "vice lists," in which Paul casually mentions the "arsenokoitai" as a group of sinners. People spend a lot of time debating about the translation of this word, because it appears only rarely in ancient writings. Even the translators of the NIV couldn't seem to make up their minds about it; it's translated as "homosexual offenders" in 1 Corinthians, but as "perverts" in 1 Timothy.

The word arsenokoitai is a compound work in Greek, and the parts of the word make reference to "male" and "bed," which indicates that this word probably referred to some kind of male homosexual behavior. The same Greek words ("male" and "bed") appear in the Greek translation of the Leviticus passage I'm going to discuss in a moment, which tells men not to lie ("bed") with a man ("male"), giving support to this theory. On the other hand, we must be careful not to assume too much; Greek compound words don't always mean what they might appear to mean. "Cyclops" in Greek is a compound word literally meaning "round eye," but we know from ancient literature that a cyclops was a mythical giant man having only one eye - which makes sense once we get the connection, but isn't something we could have figured out without all the literary references.

Still, I think that it's fairly safe to assume that the arsenokoitai of Paul's day were men engaging in some kind of homosexual behavior. But what kind of behavior? That's pretty much impossible to know for sure. Whatever it is, it would have to be something fairly common and well-known to Paul's audience; these are very short lists of common sinners (e.g. thieves, greedy, liars, etc.) everyone would be readily acquainted with. The most likely explanation is that Paul is referring to a practice that was fairly common in the Greek culture of his day - married men who had sex with male youths on the side.

The extramarital relationships of men with boys in ancient Greece are infamous even today. Archaeological and literary evidence prove that these relationships were common for centuries in Greece, though they were frowned upon by many even while they were publicly practiced. This would make a perfect target for Paul's vice lists, and it would explain why, in both lists, he mentions the sin of the arsenokoitai separately after he mentions adultery - because technically, by Greek thought, having a boy on the side wasn't adultery.

Another piece of evidence for this interpretation is the Greek word malakoi, which appears next to arsenokoitai in the 1 Corinthians passage. Malakoi literally means "soft ones," and could be translated simply to mean "morally lax." However, many scholars believe that "malakoi" and "arsenokoitai" are meant to be taken together, so that the malakoi are the young men who service the arsenokoitai. For this reason, the Jerusalem Bible translates malakoi to mean "Catamites" (that is, young male prostitutes), the New American Catholic translation says "boy prostitutes," and the New International Version reads "male prostitutes." [4] Personally, I don't think that "prostitute" is the best word to use to describe these relationships, but it does at least convey the idea of a sexual relationship outside of marriage without getting into an entire history lesson".
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity! Let's do this!!!!


I read through the pdf and it seems kind of hypocritical at times. First, he claims others "misquote" the Bible for their own purposes and then the author goes and does the same thing.

For example, he cites MARK 12:18-27 stating that it says, "If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir". That's not what it says at all. It's the story of the Saducees trying to trip up Jesus and they're quoting the laws related to levirate marriage found in Deuteronomy 25:5-10. It in no way orders or states that levirate marriage is mandated which is the impression the article seems to convey.
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity! Let's do this!!!!


I understand what you're saying. But I would say that scripture isn't "misquoted", it's taken wildly out of context, but I don't think that is what Rev White did. It's like with Leviticus 18-20, which was written 3,000 years ago, and was basically a list of rules to keep Israelites pure and separate. As I've posted, aside from the issue of homosexuality there are rules in Leviticus against "round haircuts, tattoos, working on the Sabbath, wearing garments of mixed fabrics, eating pork or shellfish, getting your fortune told, and even playing with the skin of a pig. (There goes football!)" Do you think the tattoos or markings to false Gods that they were talking about 3,000 years ago are pertinent or applicable to our society today, and are in themselves sinful? "Abomination" as it is written in the old testament simply means things forbidden for the Israelites. Now, aside from the fact that it's old testament law and is moot in my opinion since Jesus came to earth and died for my sins, I mean, even leaving that out of it, it is still a total misinterpretation of scripture to try and apply to our society today. So that was the point I think he was making. What about the passages Rev. White cites in Deutoronomy and Leviticus regarding sex during menstruation, or stoning a bride who isn't a virgin? "Deuteronomy 22:20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: 22:21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you."

Imagine if we tried to strictly interpret these passages and take them out of context in todays society? This is very dangerous.

NEW TRUTH is necessary, and should be sought, in my opinion.

How do you feel about healthy, happy, Christ-centered couples who have been divorced and remarried? Are they less sinful than two men in a same-sex relationship? Because I see a lot of finger-waving and condemning from people toward homosexuals, who lead pretty sinful lives themselves (as we ALL do), and it's very curious to me. People can set aside the divorce issue, because it's something that is widely accepted in society, yet ignore things in scripture that could be used to support slavery, women in the church, hair length, money-lending, etc. It is my hope that Christians, generally, will eventually come to accept same-sex relationships (healthy, Christ-centered same-sex relationships) like we do remarriage or hair length or money lending or age of consent or any list of other issues from the Bible. NEW TRUTH! I can't stress it enough. From Justin at gaychristian.net (you have to read his portion of the debate...it's brilliant, well researched and articulate...he's really done his homework and will hopefully change a lot of hearts on this issue)...

"When it comes right down to it, no one consistently applies Scripture passages in a literal, word-for-word, direct application to today's problems in every case. Any honest Christian has to admit that there are at least some passages that either a) don't apply today; b) still apply but don't mean what they seem to mean on the surface; or c) are overruled by other passages or biblical themes.

The problem is, how do we know which passages are which? As I said earlier, we need a clear, consistent standard that we can apply across the board.

This is more bad news for the Traditional View, though. I've been studying this issue for quite a few years now, and I still haven't found any supporter of the Traditional View who can give me a clear, consistent standard to explain why we should apply the gay prooftexts to same-sex marriage and yet not follow the letter of the text on issues like slavery, women in the church, hair length, money lending, and so on. Most Traditionalist Christians I've talked to are content to simply change standards as they go, arguing for a cultural reading of one passage and a literal reading of another, without any reason for doing so other than their prior beliefs about what the Bible ought to say."

Amen!!

New truth! Trust Jesus, not religion!

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

I love and support my gay brothers and sisters in Christ, and believe that God blesses their monogamous, loving, Christ-centered, relationships. My hope is that one day same-sex relationships and hopefully marriages(Gasp!...yes...GAY MARRIAGES) will be viewed no differently or any more sinful as people who get divorced and remarry, long-term heterosexual couples who aren't married, etc. As Chris said, when did it become a "super-sin" anyway?
 
Mar/3/2008, 5:19 pm Link to this post Send Email to jakD   Send PM to jakD
 
Callexi Profile
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity! Let's do this!!!!


Just gotta say I read all of this and I have to agree totally with Chris. The arguments made my these men that Jak quoted just do not sound convincing to me.

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Mar/3/2008, 8:49 pm Link to this post Send Email to Callexi   Send PM to Callexi
 
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity! Let's do this!!!!


quote:

Callexi wrote:

Just gotta say I read all of this and I have to agree totally with Chris. The arguments made my these men that Jak quoted just do not sound convincing to me.



Intersting. What parts don't you agree with, and why? I thought that Justin's essay and the pamphlet by Rev. White were pretty well researched and articulate arguments, Dr. White going so far as to learn greek to help him better translate. What portions of their arguments did you disagree with? I'm really curious.

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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity! Let's do this!!!!


Jack, a concern I have is that your entire argument is based upon the Interperetation of scripture held by a few men. you assume that the interperetation that these men have is valid. Have you studied this issue within the bounds of scripture for yourself without being told where to go by gaychristian.com or that pamphlet?

It is just hard for me to see merit in your argument on a subject relating to what God says on an issue because you are using sources that are not God's word as your primary source.

Hebrews 4:12-For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
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Re: Homosexuality and Christianity! Let's do this!!!!


My entire argument isn't based on the opinions of others. It has always been my belief that scripture is constantly taken out of context, to serve some particular agenda, opinion, etc. I quote these sources and offer links to these web sites because they cover the topic very well, and are pertinent, important, and offer legitimate, Biblical arguments (with regard to the interpretation of passages in Leviticus or Romans), that I have yet to see an equally solid argument against. Of course I think their interpretation is valid...I completely agree with them! But it isn't as though I didn't have this opinion long before I came across these resources. It wasn't like I was sitting around bashing gays and then one day suddenly my eyes were opened by soulforce.org. I just found some resources that happen to share my view. But simply because I happen to agree with these people and the work they've done, doesn't mean that I base everything I think on their studies. They've just done a great deal more homework than me. It's not unlike citing sources for any research.

And regarding your comment that the argument isn't using God's word as the primary source, if you read back over the post, you'll see that this entire argument is rooted in the Bible as it's primary source. "What God says on an issue"? I've quoted the Bible in every place that it mentions homosexuality. This IS the primary source. What other sources have I, or any of the sources that I've cited used? To answer your question regarding whether I have studied scripture for myself on these issues, the answer is YES. I have spent a great deal of time studying the Bible on this issue, and prayerfully searching my heart on this issue.

Again, do you think that Leviticus 18-20 is pertinent in todays society? Do you think that scripture can be interpreted literally, or do you feel that it applies to our society today? Like in Deuteronomy, should we be able to stone girls at the steps of their fathers houses for they "hath wrought folly in Israel"? Of course not. The same goes for, in my opinion, the sort of attitudes that are formed by pulling things out of scripture regarding homosexuality or tattoos, that just simply don't apply today. And I am asking you to show, in scripture, where you think I'm wrong, and why. How do you interpret the Bible on this issue? Rather than simply saying that I've based my argument on what a few men have interpreted, I'm interested in where you think they are wrong, or where I am wrong. Where, in your opinion, have they misinterpreted scripture with regard to homosexuality? How do the passages in Leviticus or Romans, when used in their proper context, make a case against same-sex relationships today? This is the issue I'm talking about. I'm asking people to show where it is in scripture, use it in its proper context, and show me how it applies today as a case for homosexuality being this abomination...this "super-sin" to quote Chris.
  

I'm looking for discussion that's scriptural, not personal; asking me if I've studied for myself "without being told where to go by gaychristian.com or that pamphlet?" is presumptuous, combative, and sort of falls in the latter category. I ask that, regardless how strongly we disagree on any issue, that we keep it respectful.

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